Reading through the "zero tolerance" pages makes me sad. I was in 6th grade when the Columbine shootings occurred, and even in California, people were going nuts. I remember that new rules were implemented, but honestly the effect was mute. Our school banned us from wearing shoes with XIV on them because of gang relations, and while I can see they were looking out for our safety, suspending us is not positive reinforcement.
Sexual harassment became a major focus, and people were suspended on a daily basis. However, when I was in 1st grade, I remember people tickling me on Halloween and refusing to stop, and thinking back on it, that would have been considered "sexual harassment."
I have young cousins, and they are absolute terrors because they are not disciplined, and those that would discipline them are afraid to because "spanking a child will get you arrested." Whatever happened to thinking, people knowing the difference between right and wrong, and good old common sense? What is happening to people? Banning something only causes it to increase in popularity, and hiding it only desensitizes the populace to the true natures of the hidden. Just look at Prohibition and the popularity of alcohol.
Posted by
Gordon Paterson, Richmond, VA, USA on March 29, 2008:
"Zero Tolerance" rules are simply a shield behind which cowardly school boards and school adminis-traitors hide so they can avoid any exercise of thought or judgment. They do this because in our litigious society they fear that any judgment call they make that turns out to be wrong could expose them to the lawyers of vengeful parents.
Are they being cowardly? Of course, and worse yet by their example they are teaching cowardice to the children in their charge.
Are they wrong? Sadly, I can only pity them their cowardice, but I cannot fault their reasoning.
You see, when we pay the people whom we expect to civilize our children about as much as we pay those who collect our garbage then we can hardly expect them to risk anything like courageous actions in the performance of their jobs.
---
Good theory, except it's wrong. Remember, the story is talking about a principal. As I pointed out in my response to a comment on another post about education, "the National Association of Elementary School Principals puts the average salary for their members at $76,144 for the [2004-2005] school year (source). I would think it's far higher in upper grade levels and college levels. I certainly consider those to be professional wages, and I'm sure they've gone up in the three years since those surveys were completed." We are paying them to make those decisions. If they're not going to make them, then we need to lower their wages (and give the money to teachers, instead!) -rc
Posted by
Nancy in Pasadena Texas on March 30, 2008:
After reading the post "ZT: the readers argue" and "Beware the Geek," I decided to post a comment. I graduated in 1963, and don't remember anything in school that was a problem. The worst anyone did was one year when someone stole another school's mascot, and that was considered terrible. I raised two children who were 6-1/2 years apart, then raised a grandchild who is almost 21 now. I have watched all the changes and tried to protest stupidity, but was only answered with stupidity. With each child, I have seen less authority and respect in the schools, and fewer parents who teach values, or much of anything else to their children. Knowing my great grandchildren will be in school in a few years is frightening. Until both parents and school officials take some responsibility and teach respect and manners, nothing will help. Not ZT or fear or anything will change what is happening.
When I say manners and common sense died and nobody noticed, people look at me like I just went into some weird zone that they don't recognize. Kind of reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy." CPS and authorities who say all you have to do is talk to your children have helped destroy all discipline. I'm not advocating beatings or anything, just people who actually care enough to know where their children are, what they are doing, and have the guts to say no. That seems to be a foreign word today.
Posted by
Sheila in Calgary, AB, Canada on April 1, 2008:
As the mother of a child who was bullied severely in school I totally agree with "Fear the Geek" - he graduated in 2006. I was also bullied and I graduated in 1978. It was not just the kids who bullied - his English teacher called him a liar when he came back from the bathroom on 9/11 to tell her what happened (janitor was watching the news). The teacher said he was lying and to sit down. When she found out during the next break it was true she did not apologize. He has a learning disability in English and she equated struggle with stupidity and troublemaker -- same teacher falsely accused him of causing a problem in Grade 9 and almost got him kicked out of school. School yard bullies grow up to be the tyrant / emotional / nasty bosses and co-workers.
Posted by
Michael, Ontario Canada on May 27, 2009:
I tend to think that it's not always the Zero Tolerance rules that are the issue, but the way they are interpreted.
As someone who was affected as a child by a lot of abusive behavior in the schools, I wish there had been more in the way of the ZT rules at the time. I literally Cheered when I heard of rulings where bullying was deemed as criminal harassment.
As with all things however, a balance needs to be found. For example, I knew someone who was fired from their job for 'sexual assault' when all he did was grab the female co-worker's arm during a heated exchange. In no way was the gesture meant sexually, but everyone was paranoid about sexual assault at the time, so it got labeled as that, and the poor guy has to go through life on the sex offender list now.
It's the same with ZT. There is too much paranoia over lawsuits and all that rot. If it weren't for everybody and their dog lawyering up for a lawsuit at the drop of a hat, there would be a lot more breathing room within the situations.
---
ZT and "balance" are opposite concepts, and are not compatible. You can either have ZT or you can have balance and discretion and nuance. You cannot have both. -rc
Posted by
Allen - New Hampshire on November 28, 2009:
I just read "Fear the Geek" and can relate to the pressure that is put on "different" students. In September 1953. we moved from a small town in NH to a small city in MA. I start my freshman year as an outcast being neither Irish or Catholic. I never got beat up but suffered the taunts of those "who belonged". I'm 70 now and can still remember the pain I endured.
There is much talk about tolerance today but I see very little of it in life, especially in our politicians. If your views are different, you are put down for it by the so-called leadership. Until the “adults” start behaving, how can we expect our kids to behave?
Posted by
Robert in Missouri on May 8, 2011:
I just finished reading "Fear the Geek", and what I experienced during my time in public school parallels much of what Dan Savage wrote. I had several black marks against me during my time in a junior high and senior high in what could be described as an upper middle class area: I was a Jew (over 90% of the kids in the two schools I attended in said district were very much WASP or Catholic), nonathletic (translation: seen as a wuss), wore glasses, and pissed off a rednecked kid because I did something he didn't like and kept stalking me for over a year until the school's head counselor put a stop to it. It died down somewhat after the first year of junior high until I entered high school. Said punk contacted a group of "Christian" athletes in the school (most left after that year) led by a cheerleader (a girl) who hounded me constantly -- stealing my books, beating me up, barring me from the lunchroom -- and I had a 7th grade counselor who was completely unsympathetic, compounded by a friend of that punk who was the son of a cop and who basically had daddy wrapped around his finger (that creep attempted to have me shanghaied to Israel when I refused to make friends with his son. I was able to call my dad and he put the kibosh on it as soon as he came down. I would have loved to have seen the FBI and federal prosecutors rip him a new sphincter muscle).
What finally turned the corner was talking to my rabbi one Sunday after those punks attempted to baptize me. From what I understand, someone at district HQ spoke to the principal and he basically let the cop's son (who was responsible for the lion's share of the harassment and should have been booted for it) have it. Came high school, the situation reversed itself and I ended up seeing a psychiatrist for almost three years because the assistant principal (a Catholic of Italian descent) believed the kids (a number who were jocks) who were picking on me were supposedly "good Catholics". The psychiatrist was a creep, a con artist, and later lost his license for molesting young girls he was treating; I never trusted him. The assistant principal retired after becoming the principal of a middle school in the district I was in that was especially noted for its unruly student population. Some years later, I heard about several anti-Semitic incidents which took place at that school after his time.
Posted by
Robert in Missouri on May 8, 2011:
One point I made in a discussion with Randy some time ago was that I hate to find out what will happen when WASPs and western/central Europeans are no longer the majority in this country. Given the growth of minorities in this country, we may well get a population of less than 50% of western and central European descent some time this century; we've already passed the 300 million mark regarding population.
ZT: The Readers Argue - Comments
Posted by Stephanie, California on April 7, 2007:
Reading through the "zero tolerance" pages makes me sad. I was in 6th grade when the Columbine shootings occurred, and even in California, people were going nuts. I remember that new rules were implemented, but honestly the effect was mute. Our school banned us from wearing shoes with XIV on them because of gang relations, and while I can see they were looking out for our safety, suspending us is not positive reinforcement.
Sexual harassment became a major focus, and people were suspended on a daily basis. However, when I was in 1st grade, I remember people tickling me on Halloween and refusing to stop, and thinking back on it, that would have been considered "sexual harassment."
I have young cousins, and they are absolute terrors because they are not disciplined, and those that would discipline them are afraid to because "spanking a child will get you arrested." Whatever happened to thinking, people knowing the difference between right and wrong, and good old common sense? What is happening to people? Banning something only causes it to increase in popularity, and hiding it only desensitizes the populace to the true natures of the hidden. Just look at Prohibition and the popularity of alcohol.
Posted by Gordon Paterson, Richmond, VA, USA on March 29, 2008:
"Zero Tolerance" rules are simply a shield behind which cowardly school boards and school adminis-traitors hide so they can avoid any exercise of thought or judgment. They do this because in our litigious society they fear that any judgment call they make that turns out to be wrong could expose them to the lawyers of vengeful parents.
Are they being cowardly? Of course, and worse yet by their example they are teaching cowardice to the children in their charge.
Are they wrong? Sadly, I can only pity them their cowardice, but I cannot fault their reasoning.
You see, when we pay the people whom we expect to civilize our children about as much as we pay those who collect our garbage then we can hardly expect them to risk anything like courageous actions in the performance of their jobs.
---
Good theory, except it's wrong. Remember, the story is talking about a principal. As I pointed out in my response to a comment on another post about education, "the National Association of Elementary School Principals puts the average salary for their members at $76,144 for the [2004-2005] school year (source). I would think it's far higher in upper grade levels and college levels. I certainly consider those to be professional wages, and I'm sure they've gone up in the three years since those surveys were completed." We are paying them to make those decisions. If they're not going to make them, then we need to lower their wages (and give the money to teachers, instead!) -rc
Posted by Nancy in Pasadena Texas on March 30, 2008:
After reading the post "ZT: the readers argue" and "Beware the Geek," I decided to post a comment. I graduated in 1963, and don't remember anything in school that was a problem. The worst anyone did was one year when someone stole another school's mascot, and that was considered terrible. I raised two children who were 6-1/2 years apart, then raised a grandchild who is almost 21 now. I have watched all the changes and tried to protest stupidity, but was only answered with stupidity. With each child, I have seen less authority and respect in the schools, and fewer parents who teach values, or much of anything else to their children. Knowing my great grandchildren will be in school in a few years is frightening. Until both parents and school officials take some responsibility and teach respect and manners, nothing will help. Not ZT or fear or anything will change what is happening.
When I say manners and common sense died and nobody noticed, people look at me like I just went into some weird zone that they don't recognize. Kind of reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy." CPS and authorities who say all you have to do is talk to your children have helped destroy all discipline. I'm not advocating beatings or anything, just people who actually care enough to know where their children are, what they are doing, and have the guts to say no. That seems to be a foreign word today.
Posted by Sheila in Calgary, AB, Canada on April 1, 2008:
As the mother of a child who was bullied severely in school I totally agree with "Fear the Geek" - he graduated in 2006. I was also bullied and I graduated in 1978. It was not just the kids who bullied - his English teacher called him a liar when he came back from the bathroom on 9/11 to tell her what happened (janitor was watching the news). The teacher said he was lying and to sit down. When she found out during the next break it was true she did not apologize. He has a learning disability in English and she equated struggle with stupidity and troublemaker -- same teacher falsely accused him of causing a problem in Grade 9 and almost got him kicked out of school. School yard bullies grow up to be the tyrant / emotional / nasty bosses and co-workers.
Posted by Michael, Ontario Canada on May 27, 2009:
I tend to think that it's not always the Zero Tolerance rules that are the issue, but the way they are interpreted.
As someone who was affected as a child by a lot of abusive behavior in the schools, I wish there had been more in the way of the ZT rules at the time. I literally Cheered when I heard of rulings where bullying was deemed as criminal harassment.
As with all things however, a balance needs to be found. For example, I knew someone who was fired from their job for 'sexual assault' when all he did was grab the female co-worker's arm during a heated exchange. In no way was the gesture meant sexually, but everyone was paranoid about sexual assault at the time, so it got labeled as that, and the poor guy has to go through life on the sex offender list now.
It's the same with ZT. There is too much paranoia over lawsuits and all that rot. If it weren't for everybody and their dog lawyering up for a lawsuit at the drop of a hat, there would be a lot more breathing room within the situations.
---
ZT and "balance" are opposite concepts, and are not compatible. You can either have ZT or you can have balance and discretion and nuance. You cannot have both. -rc
Posted by Allen - New Hampshire on November 28, 2009:
I just read "Fear the Geek" and can relate to the pressure that is put on "different" students. In September 1953. we moved from a small town in NH to a small city in MA. I start my freshman year as an outcast being neither Irish or Catholic. I never got beat up but suffered the taunts of those "who belonged". I'm 70 now and can still remember the pain I endured.
There is much talk about tolerance today but I see very little of it in life, especially in our politicians. If your views are different, you are put down for it by the so-called leadership. Until the “adults” start behaving, how can we expect our kids to behave?
Posted by Robert in Missouri on May 8, 2011:
I just finished reading "Fear the Geek", and what I experienced during my time in public school parallels much of what Dan Savage wrote. I had several black marks against me during my time in a junior high and senior high in what could be described as an upper middle class area: I was a Jew (over 90% of the kids in the two schools I attended in said district were very much WASP or Catholic), nonathletic (translation: seen as a wuss), wore glasses, and pissed off a rednecked kid because I did something he didn't like and kept stalking me for over a year until the school's head counselor put a stop to it. It died down somewhat after the first year of junior high until I entered high school. Said punk contacted a group of "Christian" athletes in the school (most left after that year) led by a cheerleader (a girl) who hounded me constantly -- stealing my books, beating me up, barring me from the lunchroom -- and I had a 7th grade counselor who was completely unsympathetic, compounded by a friend of that punk who was the son of a cop and who basically had daddy wrapped around his finger (that creep attempted to have me shanghaied to Israel when I refused to make friends with his son. I was able to call my dad and he put the kibosh on it as soon as he came down. I would have loved to have seen the FBI and federal prosecutors rip him a new sphincter muscle).
What finally turned the corner was talking to my rabbi one Sunday after those punks attempted to baptize me. From what I understand, someone at district HQ spoke to the principal and he basically let the cop's son (who was responsible for the lion's share of the harassment and should have been booted for it) have it. Came high school, the situation reversed itself and I ended up seeing a psychiatrist for almost three years because the assistant principal (a Catholic of Italian descent) believed the kids (a number who were jocks) who were picking on me were supposedly "good Catholics". The psychiatrist was a creep, a con artist, and later lost his license for molesting young girls he was treating; I never trusted him. The assistant principal retired after becoming the principal of a middle school in the district I was in that was especially noted for its unruly student population. Some years later, I heard about several anti-Semitic incidents which took place at that school after his time.
Posted by Robert in Missouri on May 8, 2011:
One point I made in a discussion with Randy some time ago was that I hate to find out what will happen when WASPs and western/central Europeans are no longer the majority in this country. Given the growth of minorities in this country, we may well get a population of less than 50% of western and central European descent some time this century; we've already passed the 300 million mark regarding population.
---
OK, and...? -rc
Read the article that everyone's commenting on, or post a comment about it.